The Scourge of The Style Sheet – a CSS Zealot Bites Back!

Sir,

When someone whose opinions you generally respect starts talking out their backside... it becomes a sacred duty to set them back on the right track. So, when I read Huw’s rant against CSS layout, I thought "OK, I’ve got a half hour to spare... I’ll show him!" and what better way to demonstrate the error of his ways than to re-write his own web page using the beauty of CSS.

It’s a testament to Huw’s skills as a columnist that he has me so incensed that I’ll actually put some effort into disagreeing with him. His comments on the Open Source community, Internet Explorer, Microsoft and standards compliance were mildly irritating but largely a matter of opinion (you can’t really "Rant" if you just agree with everyone else can you?) However, when he says...

"In my view, style sheets are all fine and dandy for, well, setting styles. But for laying out web pages they are dreadful, awkward, ineffective, messy or, to put it more succinctly: just plain wrong."

..that’s enough to get me dusting off my soap box. Yes, I am a CSS zealot!!

Let’s deal first with Huw’s attempts to justify his tables "habit." I guess I agree with him on the relevance of the "tables require more HTML" argument. I doubt if there is a significant difference in rendering time between table and CSS layouts even on a dial up connection.

Next Huw says:

"Tables are difficult to maintain? Really? “To change something you have to figure out what all the td/tr are doing.” Sorry, but I don’t have to figure that out at all. That’s Dreamweaver’s job."

Well that’s fine if you have £300+ in spare change. I certainly don’t. and in my experience "lesser" web design tools tend to make a dog's breakfast of all but the most basic table layouts.

Huw’s original page is laid out using 11 tables using 73 pairs of assorted html tags, the nesting of which is so complex I’ve given up trying to work out how deep it goes. Try it yourself here. My version has 10 pairs of <div> tags nested to 3 layers at the deepest.

If a beginner, like me, can create this layout in an hour or so, with nothing more than a text editor, surely it can’t be as difficult as Huw claims. CSS may not be the ultimate layout solution, but it is the best solution presently available.

George Morrison
http://www.itmansoftware.net

The Case Against CSS

Sir,

I just wanted to express my agreement with your latest blog entry concerning CSS. Whilst I see its use for simple stuff like fonts, colours and perhaps, borders - I find it an absolute waste of time and effort for anything else, especially layouts.

My sites all rely on tables for layout, and the reason for this is two-fold. Firstly, it's a lot easier to actually put together (namely because I am more used to standard HTML), and secondly, it's a heck of a lot easier to actually work with (for me anyway). Oh and thirdly - it just works! (I did try to put together a CSS template for one of my site's layouts, but it all went to pot, so I went back to good old HTML).

Regards

Steven Burn
Senior IT Consultant
UK Digital Storage
http://www.it-mate.co.uk/

Ruby – Storm in a D Cup?

Sir,

I have been reading with interest your article(s) on Ruby, and am puzzled as to why you find it so great? Dermot, after your snake oil OOP article, I was even more shocked to see you building an IDE for Ruby that runs under Visual Studio 2005. Am I missing something here?

I just don't see what is so great about Ruby? Well you guys obviously know what's what but how about a side by side comparison with say C, Java, C# and Ruby for say an XML parser?? I stumbled upon this link and thought you may find it of interest, could D be the Holy Grail programmers have been seeking in a programming language? http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html

Name withheld by request

(See Dermot's views on D and our interview with D creator, Walter Bright - Ed.)

Wikipedia Bans and Blocks

Sir,

Igor Faslyeff's letter dealt with reliability of Wikipedia in Issue #7.  It would seem that Igor left out an important detail, that organized groups can control output on Wikipedia.

Controlling individuals can reach positions of authority and then ban and block active participation in Wikipedia to those who oppose their views. A recent example of this can be found at the contentious Wikipedia/Cuba site where if one goes to the corresponding talk site and then to the "history site" one finds such remarks as:

" ::So do I but Adam wont reply. Your NPOV and he isn't. Its useless to try anymore. Its only going to stay a revert war until the whole lot are blocked for good here. 16:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)"

Larry Daley